April 12, 2022

#299 John Woodley – Transcript

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Ben Nash
Hey guys, Ben Nash from the XY advisor team. And today I’m pumped to be here with John Woodley. John has been in the advice industry for, for a long time, he is a coach, advisor and executive chairman at Fitzpatricks. He’s been in that business for 23 years, a lot of that time in the COC feed started as a business about 35 years ago, and ran predominantly as an advice business. And then when John joined, they’ve looked to expand that business with with other like minded advisors. And yeah, grow it into the beast that it is today. So John, thanks for joining us, buddy.

John Woodley
My pleasure, man.

Ben Nash
Man, I thought a good place to start would be to talk about a little bit of the evolution of the business and I suppose how it came about how you, you you got involved and and some of the progression from there.

John Woodley
Yeah, thanks, Ben. I guess some of the some of the where Fitzpatricks has got has been an accident. And some of that has been a something that’s been close to mine, Scott Heartsaver, ever since we’ve got together and start to think about what we could actually do and build together. So Scott Fitzpatrick been the namesake of the firm, you know, really my really partner throughout, essentially. So, you know, really, the formation was at Scott and I are getting together and separately, advice businesses, and just sort of talking about advice and how it could be and sort of working through that and wanting to do things a little bit differently, especially in the high net worth space, even back in the light, it would have been 99. At that point, at that point in time, and how things needed to be done in our businesses a little bit differently. What actually happened from there was other advisors who were actually seeing what we did or who, you know, who were friends. So what we’re doing and sort of said, how can you coach, can we advise that way? They have problems doing that, within the frameworks that were around at that period of time, you know, you’re talking to, you know, to year to, like, 99, etc. And so they would start to say, Hey, can you coach us? Can we do it your way, would say, hey, we need a license, you need a license? How about we do that, and then we sort of formed and started to collaborate together, we just sort of grew up grew from people who were attracted more to the way that we were giving advice and would coach them. And so we sort of progressed with a bit. At the beginning, Scott and I had a vision of a national professional advice firm, about being very client centric, really focused around those objectives, but being very professional. And so Fitzpatricks has just continued to develop on that path. And that same core vision and values that we started up with, right back in the beginning, it’s still there. And it’s still the same vision about a national product well, firm, it wasn’t about services to advise businesses, it wasn’t about that it was always about the actual advice business and how you can give great advice so that, you know, we will focus on it high net worth markets in we just evolved like that over time. So that’s, that’s really the progression.

Ben Nash
And what are you one of the things that we’ve been focused on in my advice business over the last little bit is building out a more private wealth focused solution? I think we’ve seen a, I think it’s somewhat of a natural progression that I’ve observed with in advice businesses, that they build more of a reputation, and that might start out of interest. And I just started the clients that they get exposed to. And obviously, yeah, the more the more people have got, the more value you can add from a bottom line perspective as well. I’m interested to unpack like, how did you guys go about building that solution? And And how has that changed over the you know, what’s been decades that you’ve been doing it?

John Woodley
One thing that hasn’t changed? When you’re in that space, it’s what I call a very much a relationship business, not a scale business. So in that it’s professional. It’s it’s what you call a margin and relationship business. I’ll give you an example is that you know, your approach to technology in that type of businesses different how others might approach technology. So you know, private wealth business, the way I view technology is how does technology help me be more human to my client, whether in other businesses people are looking to technology to do more of the delivery? Or I’d say they’re looking at the do more of a service and the advice proposition I got well, in to be more efficient. I’m not really necessarily thinking about efficiency. So per se, I’m thinking more about how Can I add more into that relationship around that client, that specific client that I really want to be a hero to? Or that I really want to serve really well? And then that anchors all my strategy around how I grow businesses, or maybe look at that client and going, Hey, what are they really need? And how can I be a hero to those top clients, I’ve actually got, and actually really focus how I build things around that. But it’s all around the relationship. It’s all around that advice, it’s all around how I can help them have more capability, confidence and direction in their life. And then we sort of work it back from here. So I don’t know that it’s been rocket science. But it’s been, because you sort of been really at that end, and you really understand that this is a relationship business, it’s a margin business, so therefore not highly scalable business. And therefore, it’s a high skill and high capability business. And therefore, it’s all around it’s it’s more of a professional services, style, strategy, and professional Vystar strategy than it is around a wealth, business building strategy. Okay, they’re different types of businesses. And so when you get clear on there, you go all in. And if as a business, I want to be in that business, which is very different, well, then your delivery of services, the way you turn up, how you engage is differently to a general wealth business. So yeah, it’s,

Ben Nash
it’s interesting, I know that my experience from we have just randomly had exposure to I suppose clients in that some, you know, the eight figure plus levels of wealth space, and I think you’ve hit a bang on that you can’t really have it in the rest of our business, it’s like, this is the approach. And then you know, we do these three meetings, and they go for this amount of time, and then the things that we cover, but I found that, if that all just goes out the window when it comes to these people, because the things that are front of mind for them are different. And the the the situation tends to evolve reasonably quickly. as well. Obviously, you got a ton of experience in that space at ease. While there’s, I’m guessing that there’s probably not a, you know, definitive, consistent, like, you know, Cadence and approach Exactly. Is there. Is there a standard sort of, I suppose, process that you would take people through or approach that you would take to onboarding a client like that asking him or with your advisor had on now? Oh,

John Woodley
yeah, I think that I think that’s really important, especially especially around really good professional firms, they they have a way back going Do you know, you have a look at any national respectable professional firm call at Deloitte, etc, they have a way back going, how they turn up how they interact? And I do think that’s consistent in liking that first time you are engaging with people. It’s what are you engaging around? So not taking my agenda, my service offering my proposition or my value at all to the engagement? Now I’m a little bit different than in I think, people who are attracted, Fitzpatrick says, I sit down as a servant to the client, not with, you know, and that’s very different. So when I’m engaging a new client come in and go, Well, how can I help you? Number one, right? It’s not about my propositions, or about my process or anything like that. It’s about the client. And it’s just like, well, how can I help him i, and that’s a professional engagement, you think about when you go into a lawyer account, you sit down, then they sit down with a blank piece of paper? How can I help they don’t sit sit down there with a, a service offering or anything like that? To offer you, you know, that it’s a professional engagement. And I think that’s the important thing to sit down there and be confident, hey, I’m gonna serve, unify calm through my network, I’ll be able to connect you and that’s great. So and then it’s really, for me in that initial engagement, really having a framework, a great skill set, and actually asking the questions and really staying with that, and not trying to solve anything and actually understand in in our world and our profession, really, at the Enter is entering that what that really one question, which is where, you know, what are you trying to achieve? And can we help you get there with them in a matter of risk? I mean, that’s the real question is, in that process, having a good framework where you stay and really understanding what the client is really needing, before you move on to finding out facts before you move on to helping them articulate in a manner that’s safe to them that their future reality or that they’re committed future. Have you want to terminate? You know, and that’s really where we’ve got to get to is, in my professional, my role, how I see my role. Now, there’s different technical advisors and everything like that I’m not talking about this a very general speak on the saying, hey, you know, helping you actually, that articulate you, you know, you’re committed future, what are you committed to? And then sort of bring your way back in. But having that I think it’s really worthwhile having a structured way where you get to that without jumping in too early without trying to solve issues without trying to advise it’s, I sort of have a view that a lot of advisors that I see in coach and mentor, they probably over advise and under question, and stay in that question mode as long as we can, and helping the client feel really comfortable that, you know, in all the time I’ve been advising, there’s only been really one person has really been financially well organized. According to, according to their committed future. It was a lawyer from I think it was Ghana windy, right. And so another advise many partners from some of the biggest accounting firms and legal firms and they’re not well organized. So how do you get everyone to feel comfortable, and let their guard down to talk about the committed future in a way where they can sort of express that that’s a skill. And that’s, that’s, I think, a little bit at the heart of the profession of don’t start to show how good you are or how technical you are, and to actually understand that committed future and those, so hold off as long as you can, to move through that and to have a good understanding. So I don’t know whether that’s what you’re asking them. But that’s, you know, really engaging with those people have complex or complex complex to them. How do you sort of get them?

Ben Nash
Yeah, look, I think it’s interesting that that’s, it’s one thing that is consistent with, I think high net wealth clients are or private wealth clients, or whatever label you want to put on that. And, like all regular sort of retail clients, or non high net worth clients say it that way that that does very much ring true, I think particularly important, given the level of complexity with the more stuff going on, and more dollars to deal with. However, I think that for people, anyone that’s in a reasonable financial position, which is, you know, almost now, with all the changes in advisors, almost the only people that can afford financial advice, so the people that advisors are talking to that there’s a lot of different ways to be right. And the best, the best decisions for them typically come down to like, you know, what’s important to them? How do they want their lives to move? Like, how do they want them to progress over time? What how do they feel about different levels of risk? So they I think it is natural that we want to help people. That’s it a lot of advisors that they come into this game or stay in this game, because because they do love to help people. And it is really easy to jump into that solutions mode. But yeah, I think very, very true to ask more questions. And listen first, and I think people take a lot of that out out of that in itself. But obviously that places us better to support clients better as well. Look, I am keen to talk about some of the insights that you see from obviously see inside a lot of advice businesses through the work that you do at feeds. But I do have one last question just on the high net wealth space. Before we get there. What if for advisors that are listening in that might be keen to move more into the space or create a solution for the bigger end of town? What would be the top three things that you said that you think that they should be, you know, thinking about or do to give themselves the best chances of success there?

John Woodley
Well, number one is probably realize the the value that our profession actually has it really actually contemplate them actually understand that. So a lot of advisors, I think, can package up over time in businesses. You’re talking about people who might need advice or take advice from UPenn not not just a lot of people have it sorted. Right. So but the people you know, where I’d sort of start with is really, actually understanding utility of advice done well, okay. It has a real community value. And when people really understand that, hey, what I do, if I do it well, has a huge impact on the community through you know, helping people leave those more rich lives. So I think that’s number one at the heart of is actually understanding the value that a truly equipped and capable advisor can actually make, and that it’s not a secondary profession, and that there’s huge opportunities there. To do that. do it professionally and that they can, and that they can be proud about that. That’s, that’s probably one. Actually understanding the client, if you want to be a profession, it’s a, it’s a profession, right? So you’re, it’s about the art of the profession and allowing for a different set it actually makes. And in that, I think it’s important to have a good understanding of who you serve, serve well and who you serve best. Alright, so there’s enough people out there who need our service. And there’s lot, and it’s really understanding who you serve well, where it’s good for you. And it’s good for the client, and it’s good for your staff. And it’s that concept of profitable growth or needs to be profitable for the client profitable for me as a professional and mice, my team and everything. And then actually understanding who you serve, and who you love to serve and who you’re curious about. So that makes a great advisors. So I know, when I am advising, I still do do some, but it’s at a different level now. And my engagements are very, very much different. But I’m so curious, on I’m involved in. So I’m interested in, because if you’re going to do it as a professional, if you’re going to do it for a long period of time, you’ve got to love you know, your, your leisure times your work a lot of the time, so why not really be curious about the people you’re with. And that really makes you a great profession, because you get more interested in the people you serve, know who you serve, and know who you’re speaking to, would be certainly number two on that. And the third one is just trying to only that wouldn’t be too, I just get so many people to see them get distracted by doing this. And that answer this and then and what if I built this and do that and this other service proposition. And I’m sure there’s a lot of noise. And you know, as a professional, it comes down to knowing who’s nine what that client wants, and then really competing for talent and your team. Okay, it’s in a professional service, you’ll compete, one of the things you are you’re competing for talent. So going looking for great talent to boost your team, so you can actually serve them better. So they’re probably off the top of my head three things.

Ben Nash
I love it. And I love talking of talent. I think, obviously, as a business where you’re working essentially as like a coach and you’re partnering with advice businesses and running lights and C services as well. You guys end up and you you know, grown considerably since the since the time that you joined, that. I know that it’s not the same in terms of you know, it’s not the same as an advisor employing someone directly in an advice business. But I think Fitzpatrick Fitzpatrick’s as a business, you’re known for the quality of the advisors and the businesses that you do work with and partner with. So I’m interested to hear someone that’s hiring myself and I’ve been, you know, massively trying to upskill in this space and and figuring out how do you find the right people on board? And well, all of those things? What have been the how do you make sure that you’re getting the right people? Firstly, and then how do you go about setting them up for for success in the partnership that you guys do end up with together?

John Woodley
Oh, I? Look, I think sometimes it’s really when you know, you’re in a competition for talent, taking lessons from other professions, other professions. And the way that they go about it, they’re always seeking that talent, and how do we be attractive to that talent now? And then how do you communicate your culture? So in professional service, we all have a different culture and a different way of being is how do you communicate to the other person so they can self select a little bit? Okay, so there’s, there’s that element, but also communicating your passion and communicating, hey, what’s important here and all of those sorts of things for the other person? What’s the service? I do think the people are your most valuable asset, right? Obviously, it’s you have a look at your p&l and everything like that. It’s all talking about people. And when we get clear on that, really developing our own skills as leaders around how do you how do you build and enrich the lives of your team? And how do you build that capability is one of your key roles that you actually haven’t leaders in the business and ultimately, it’s your highest leverage point. It’s almost one of the highest things that you actually do other than seeing the client. Obviously, if you’ve got that jewel robot, it’s just identifying talent. And then actually developing the skills of how to identify talent, I don’t know that I have a, a, a set process or a magic wand over that it’s just import each.

Ben Nash
Because that would be really helpful, that it’s incredibly.

John Woodley
It’s just, you know, I just say, look, it’s one of the most important in going forward, if you’re a leader of the business, the most important thing you do developing capability within your team, it’s the ultimate I know a lot of business strategies and even any wealth, but outside wealth, when I ask people, What is your business strategy clients, and etc? And they’ll go, well, it’s to grow EBIT, buy these and do this, and oh, yeah, well, that’s not strategy. Okay, what is the strategy of actually how you grow. And once I had to say that the ultimate leading activity in the success of your business, especially our phones is, do you actually measure how you’re actually building the capability of your team, your people, that’s the ultimate, that’s the thing you should measure, not your p&l. If you measure that, you know, it turns up in your p&l later, and through great client experience through great service, new services offered, and Glaucon experience, then it turns up in your p&l, anyone you deliver that and the way to do that is to book great capability in yourself and in your team and start to measure that. And with with recruiting, I just say, you know, I don’t know any magic way about just get good at just work. Just go and practice, just get home and get good at it. Because it’s one of the key capabilities you need to have. And maybe there’s lots of other people, you could go to work out that magic formula and everything and, and there’s lots of services that can help you with, not just say, you just need as a lady, you just need to get good at it.

Ben Nash
Absolutely, I think you’ve got to build that muscle. And I would say that it’s probably even for advice, like I know, at the moment, my time is a bit split between growing the business and and still supporting some clients. But I I don’t take the client work that we do lightly. But I think the team building is probably the most important thing, because the more I can support the team, the better that they can support clients. And as you say, it drives that growth. I know that you guys do you know, with the advisors in your network, that a big thing that you do is help them to to grow and support the growth of their business. And you mentioned that building capabilities within their team are, you know, is a key driver or a leading indicator of that? How should people go about tackling that or other others within their businesses? Or what are the what are the key key things to be aware of? how they go about developing their papers that were pushing was Yeah, building capability within their teams is there I suppose it is somewhat different depending on every business and individual, but are there? You know, is there? Is there an approach that you found works better than others there?

John Woodley
Yeah, you Yeah. Certainly, for the leader of the business, to commit themselves to their own leadership development, number one, okay, they’re at their own ability to actually do that within their team. That would be where I’d start, you know, I know, quite regularly at the beginning of every year. So I have a routine in my diary, where I lock away for the year or my thinking time or strategy time throughout the year, you know, it’s so many days at the beginning, so many days a month, so many hours a week, I lock that away, so I can have thinking time. But I know every year when I turn up to my January thinking time, that I get a little bit upset because I go ha Damn, I’ve got to ante up again and change again myself, I’ve got to improve again, myself, because I actually know that if I focus on and I have a passion for that, that people are, like attracts like is that the people around will have a passion for learning and a passion for curiosity and those sorts of things. So and then just to sort of speak about give people opportunity. So you know, I always saw performance reviews when I was doing them I would never see performance review as the review of my team I would see a performance review of how well am I serving in the business serving you to be the best that you can be. So let’s actually have a talk about how you can be the best you can be and let’s let you review me in that light as a leader in the business as a leader, how are we helping you be the best you can be as as a as an advisor or a member of the team? Now then let’s just flip that around and have an honest conversation about what can you do to be the best you can be and where can we actually sponsor your improvement and have a lovely honest conversation about it and not get caught up too much in the noise Second surround these things because really the context of is how can we both have one?

Ben Nash
So I love it. Start with start from the top lead by example and filter through I think, yeah, it makes it makes a lot of sense. John, you guys obviously see inside a lot of advice businesses through the through the, you know, the work that you’re doing, what what have you found makes the biggest difference to those that do really well, and those that don’t?

John Woodley
Yeah, a couple of things is less, it’s more, it really comes down to that less is more. So really understanding who you serve, well restrict the amount of people you’re going to serve a lot of the times, okay, so you can serve, and sort of grow through that don’t get caught up into the bigger and more is better. So know who you serve, know your positioning, know who you’re speaking to, so that you speak to them well, and you serve those people? Well, that cuts out a whole lot of noise and inefficiencies in these businesses, you stop doing getting distracted by new widgets come out new technology that comes out all of these other sorts of things. And because if you’re in the high net worth space, and you want to be in a professional business, it’s a low people business, it’s a margin style business, the impact. You know, as I said, Well, I’m not sure why huge technology needs if I’ve only got 30 clients. I’m not sure what they are, I’m not sure it’s a real scale piece. And so then I’ll don’t say that it has application in as huge application, but it’s the mindset around what’s important. And doing less is more knowing who you speak to. I like the idea of restricting how many people who you are going to serve, and it’s not an endless piece, it’s not an endless show, there’s not endless tickets, because that actually means that you really value the people you bring on board as clients or even as team members. And you put a lot more effort into making sure they’re a great fit, because you don’t have endless seats for that. And so you’re making therefore you’re having a really honest engagement with clients, especially as is it good for you? And is this good for me? And then can I add value? And can you add value and the expectations around that, and we were really looking at that this is an investment of time, not just what I can get or what fee I can get. So that’s it less is more would be I spent a lot of time with people just saying, Hey, come on, let’s actually just focus on what you can do really well and uniquely, let’s get clear on that, then let’s actually build around your positioning around that. And how can you communicate in that in a way to the people who are going to hear that and get permission to speak to them. And then you can actually start to build out from there. And then there’s a whole lot of stuff you don’t do like I’ve never done seminars, I’ve never done all of these other marketing activities, because I know my clients will come through current clients and through my, through my close relationships that I actually have with other professionals, and that’s where they come from. So I don’t need, all I need to do is serve those professionals. Well, and I need to serve that well. So I don’t need to do a whole lot else.

Ben Nash
Yeah, I think that sometimes advisors and business owners, you can feel pressure that said there a lot of noise out there. And people are saying, oh, you should be doing you know, whether it’s seminars or on, you know, Facebook or any number of things. And I think that you’ve got to find where the people that you want to talk to are and all like where do you intend to get your people from and then build your strategy around that, as opposed to trying to think that you need to replicate what what someone someone else is doing.

John Woodley
It’s a good point, Ben, it’s different different marketplaces, different people, different advisors, but you’re exactly right, you probably articulated that better than I could really now like knowing where they are and being able to speak to them. I think that saves a lot of time and inefficiencies in business and not getting distracted by all the new widgets and ideas and things out there. It seems to be that there’s a lot of that.

Ben Nash
Absolutely. Yeah. And I love the comment as well around limiting clients because I have found that as I’ve been growing my business there have been for a long time it was a it was a matter of we want to work with more people than we’ve them than we currently are. So it will wanting to attract more people in and then it sort of got to this bit Have a tipping point. And then we had more people that wanted to work with us than what we could have, that we can work with effectively and efficiently. And given that that was the first time that that had happened. For me, I was like, Oh, great. And then we just like, where do we fit these people? And, you know, we put them in. But what that was a mistake, in hindsight, because I realized that it meant we put our team under a lot of pressure. And it meant that in order to meet our, our service standards, that, you know, people were having their nose to the grindstone for too long, they probably caused a couple of people to get burnout and didn’t do good things for how our ability to focus on other things in the business that was gonna set us up to support our clients better in the future. And I think that turned into an issue. And then I said, Well, okay, well, what let’s figure out what our capacity is, and then we go, okay, well, we can deliver, you know, this number of new clients, this number of reviews, and then we’ve got, you know, the certain number of team there that can support that. And what that for me, what I found was, when we focused on that I started saying, Oh, hold on a second, we need to actually look at our service packages here. Because if we’re only working with, you know, 10 new clients a month, or whatever that number ends up being, then and if every advisor currently work with, you know, 120 clients, or whatever that number is, well, okay, well, it needs to be the if we’re, if we’re looking at making sure that the business is going to be sustainable, and we are going to be here to support these clients in the future, then we need to make sure that we’re getting to a certain revenue threshold in order to do that. And it really focused for me and for the team, I think in terms of, yeah, like you say, what we what we should be doing more of and what we should be doing, less of so I think yet, that’s

John Woodley
it, it’s really quite interesting, remember, really early on, Delaware picked it up from but I certainly didn’t invent it, but I took it on. And I’ve always kept in mind, the advantage of you and your professional business or in businesses like ours over like institutional business, is sort of comes down to is the process for innovation and meeting client needs, which is what innovation is about a lot of times. And I love that we can go if you want to know what you should build, go and ask it, go and ask the client for the check. Give you the end, if I give you the check, you know, it’s valuable, then give you the check, don’t build. And if they do anything, then check, use that check to go and, and work all night and work and back yourself before you ask for the check. You got to understand that your team can deliver even though in the beginning, it’s not going to be there or clunky or anything. But what you do is know how you can then build your business around that, you know, what you’re doing is meeting a client needs. So therefore, it’s worth the investment of time. So often I see businesses come up with these beautifully designed packages and etc. And they go, Oh, this is a great service, are we gonna deliver this? We’re going to deliver that and I’m going to deliver this and I know we’re not asked the client devalue, then they go No. No. Can you can you actually file that lovely little review? Package? Can you put that on? You know, that side of me? Can you actually put that in my drawer here? I’m not taking it home? Yeah, yeah. So asking the client really what they value and having that conversation, what’s the matter with us as asking the client directly, hey, this is what I’m thinking, would you pay for that?

Ben Nash
Or even something, I think as well, that we we’ve done things in the past. And it’s like, oh, we’ll create and we work with a lot of younger people and where we’ve got a fair bit of technology in our business, and it’s like, oh, we’ll create a members portal, and we’ll put some educational content in there. And that’d be great. Because then the advisor is not going to have to explain these things. And, you know, having this conversation day in and day out, but what we found was that people want that conversation like they don’t, they don’t want to go go to some members portal and watch video for him. You know, in certain circumstances. I know that that does work for some people and some businesses and some clients, but for us, it didn’t sell. It’s like we launched the thing, but then we looked at the stats and said, Well, okay, this is not effective. So let’s not not put the energy there. So sometimes I think I think that that if you can get them cut the check first or if you want to try something, make sure that keep in mind that you could you want to be able to measure who’s actually using it, and how much are they using it so that you can see is it worth resourcing, or wait time money or team in the

John Woodley
in the professional that you know is go through? One of the things that could come back with the client that you’re wanting to advise to, to one that lots of things that they’re looking for, but one of the key things they’re looking for is they want to know how to think about all of their problems. They don’t necessarily want you to do their thinking for them or provide the information for it or anything like that. They actually want they, they want them, they want to have the capability themselves to have more so that they can work out behave, how can I improve the direction in my life? And how can I have more capability and more confidence. But it’s their capability, not our capability. So you know, we sort of thing about those conversations you’re talking about with these clients, what’s actually going on, as they’re learning how to think about these things. So when they go away, they’re more equipped between when they catch up. So my goal has always been how do I make them less dependent on me? Not more dependent on me having to ask me the questions having to ask me, they come back to me all the time, I think is how to equip you, and how can I help you think about this more so that you’re, you’re more capable to create the bigger future for yourself without necessarily being dependent on a bit? We can, you know, and then the relationships based around that, you know, growing those big futures together, so that’s, you know, well, that’s what they were alluding to, you know, how do I actually connect with them and have more of those conversations, essential conversations with the client, rather than more stuff, you know, I need more stuff.

Ben Nash
I love that. And I think it does help the client to ultimately build more confidence in what they’re doing. Because at the end of the day, I think they still want to know that what they’re doing is the right thing. So if they can think better about their problems, or know how they should be thinking about them, then that’s great. But it doesn’t I think that there’s sometimes there’s a fear that does that mean that then the they’re not going to need us or want our support. But I think that when it’s

John Woodley
how good would it be? If they didn’t? I mean, ultimately sort of thing about how good would that be? You could equip them enough and that they could go out and mentor other people, and then there’ll be less lots more people to walk in your door that actually need that. And then you got known for really helping people have more capability and things like that. And true, true advice and equipping. And so, you know, that’s one way to look at it, it’s a little bit different to how we would standard look at it, but it’s it’s, as an advisor, it takes a lot of the stress out of advising. Oh, hang on. It’s not about making you dependent on me, it’s about helping you create, you know, make the changes you need to make not I’m not I’m not making the changes, you’re you’re making the changes.

Ben Nash
Yeah, I love that. It’s a it’s a it’s a great philosophy. And I think that practically as well, like it takes time for people to get to that point. So you build a good relationship, great, great results. Someone you’ve probably got an advocate for life. And then you’ve got someone that can go spread that message to to others. So John, thank you so much for sharing your insights, so much gold there, I’m sure we could, we could keep chatting all day. But I know that you’re, you’re a very busy man. So I really appreciate you taking the time. Look for people that are keen to learn more about what you guys do. What’s the best way for them to find out more?

John Woodley
Oh, that’s a good question. And that got my marketing hat on. Do I?

Ben Nash
Sorry, I should be ready for that one.

John Woodley
Yeah. Look, look, I’m sure on the website or something like that. They sort of connect through I’m sure that there’s a there’s something they can do there. But see, look, contact me that’s fine. Shoot me you can find a way to through how to do that. But it’s been enjoyable conversation.

Ben Nash
Thanks, John. might appreciate it again for sharing your insights. Yeah, we’ll catch you next time.

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