April 19, 2022

#301 Matt Leech – Transcript

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Ben Nash
Hey guys, Ben Nash from the XY advisor crew. And today I’m pumped to be here with Matt Leach, who has told me to just introduce him as legend. So maybe I’ll leave it there and let let him do the talking. Matt, thanks for joining us, buddy.

Matt Leech
Thanks for having me, Ben. It’s good to be here.

Ben Nash
mate. Look, I’m keen to I’m keen to unpack your story, because it is a an interesting one you’ve been in the industry for, you know, for for a little while your baby face doesn’t give that away, but gone through a few changes in that time. So I’m keen to unpack that in some of the lessons that have come from that. So maybe we’ll start there. Can you just tell us about your your evolution as an as an advisor, and how you’ve ended up where you are today?

Matt Leech
Yeah, it’s kind of probably like a lot of advisors out there, I fell into the industry. My first kind of exposure was sitting at the dining table with my parents and their advisor. So a lot of people probably heard my sort of backstory before, but I had a special needs sister. And so my parents were trying to obviously be very prudent around what they were doing and planning for the future. And I really sort of commended them for that. But I didn’t realize there was all these things around money. So I was really interested sitting at the dining table and hearing what the adviser had to say. So that was my first experience. Probably a few years later, I actually ended up working for him as an advisor, purely because I was looking for a job that I could get into where I, you know, had to wear, not gym shorts. Working in a gym for a while, ha, I better get a job where I’m not wearing gym shorts anymore. Soon, so

Ben Nash
I’m trying to get a job where I can wear gym shorts.

Matt Leech
Times have changed man you wear hoodies these days. But yeah, so that was my first experience. He sort of worked in an a&p firm, one man band, when that really works, did that for a year sort of got my diploma. And that was a really interesting experience. Didn’t know what I was doing didn’t know, much apart from Super rollovers and insurance, I think that’s kind of I think I was about 22 at the time. And where I used to get clients was hopefully running into them at the shopping center, and then try booking appointment that was how I started and it was, it was very stressful, and I had no idea what I was doing. So after that I did a year with a private, private licensed firm, which used to work in with sort of Deloitte staffs, we’d go sit in their offices and try and deliver some advice and help them individually. When I go to from there, and then I did quite a few years it PSK which was a charter firm, which was probably where I got most of my my experience was the exposure to different things out there that buyer’s agents and the estate planning piece and real holistic planning the tax side of it. So that’s where really probably got that learning. So from there, and you can jump in anytime then if you want to ask any questions about those particular places, but it was often seeing, like often we feel like we need mentors in our life. And that mentor is going to show us all the things that we should be doing. But often my experience in financial advice was watching maybe what I didn’t want to be and listening to other advisors talk and going I’m not going to do it that way I feel like this way is probably better for me. So really sort of maybe seeing what I didn’t want to be to create my own style. I don’t know if that’s been your way Ben but I think that’s pretty common in advice I think we see a lot of things that we don’t want to be

Ben Nash
I think for me I tend to pick like I like you when I started in advice I had really very little idea what I was doing arguably still don’t depending on who you ask but I suggested started just doing basic advice and in fact that’s where the you know, the XY advisor community all sprung from that I left a really structured business where everything was spoon fed and went into a small business where I had to figure everything out myself and then was just doing basic super and insurance stuff and Clayton he left he went through horizon started his own business and was figuring a lot of stuff out himself Adrian Patty the same went through horizons started small business off the back of that and we’re all just like figuring out and Ray J Same deal he went as in as an employee and another business and we’re learning from each other had a couple of good mentors and the I would just pick one thing one area and then talk to three or four different people about how they did it and I would probably pick the best bits so probably not the although I suppose you do see a few things that you want to avoid but I would just go yeah, that seems to gel with my personality or Mike clients or my values or how I want to how I picture advice in my mind, and then just go that way and everything changes anyway. So it’s like you just pick a starting point and then get then in the market starts giving you feedback and you tweak and you know, go, go go from there

Matt Leech
I just gonna say it’s really common that advisors often can’t look up to someone, it’s about looking about what you don’t want to be. So yeah, had a really good experience, a PSK really got some good exposure to different things. The best thing I think I found, at that point was the steward wheel tool. I’ve been a big advocate for the steward wheel for a really long time now. And I just think it completely shows and delivers the value to advice in one meeting. And we can talk about that today, if you like around what the biggest thing for me has been. But I think one of the interesting points, I think we should also talk about just going back to what you just mentioned about some of your colleagues, and then starting their own business. I always felt that starting my own business was the right way to go. But and we’ve romanticized that a lot. But I went the other way and went, you know, what, I’m spending more time talking to the license and you know, the accountant and going through wages and payroll. And so I don’t want to be doing that. I just want to talk to clients. So I went the other way, and ever since not become self employed.

Ben Nash
You mean to tell me you don’t enjoy spending two and a half hours on the phone with ASIC connect, trying to figure out how to register professional year candidates only to figure out that they changed all the rules. And you don’t actually need to do that until like the provisional Advisor Now, apparently, that doesn’t get you out of bed in the morning, Matt,

Matt Leech
are you crazy then? But no. So I’ll probably go. I’ll touch on that probably as we go through the timeline. But you had spent some time at PSK I think was about four years. And then it’s a really great four thinking guys from Mr. Lesko shout out to the guys that Mr. Lesko. Yeah, so really had a good experience there. I think I might have been there for that two years. And most of these models and groups that I joined, I was almost like, I was running my own business, but I was like a subcontractor. So I was fitting into their broader business, but also sort of growing my own book and, you know, paying a percentage for office space. And then I was keeping the rest. So as sort of a semi self employed model. And I got to that two years ago, Valeska thought I really want to just try this fully on my own. And again, I think we do romanticize running our own business and what it means and, you know, I think it probably strokes our ego a little bit. So I felt compelled to go that way. And that’s when I set up insight, wealth, you know, got some office space, got some admin support. And that was a really eye opening experience. I loved it. But by the end of the four years of running my business, I think I just got to that point where I felt I was just spending time on all the parts that I didn’t like, as opposed to just talking to clients. That’s what I’m good at. That’s what I like. So why am I spending all this time on other areas that don’t excite me? And I’m sure there’s some of your listeners that like that, Ben, what’s the sort of feedback? Are you finding people getting a little bit disillusioned with running their own business and financial planning? Or?

Ben Nash
Yeah, well, I know that we, because we’ve been hiring advisors for like, a year or so. And talking to a number of those potential candidates for our roles, I’ve found people in a similar position where it’s like, they’re just running their own show, you know, ticking along and it might be might be making a bit of money or like, you know, doing okay, but as you’ve mentioned, that there’s bogged down with a lot of the, the admin, the all of the things that aren’t advice that aren’t, why they started a business, but are all entirely necessary in order to do that. So I think in particular, like the last 12 months, that we’ve seen a massive uplift in what we need to be doing behind the scenes, which I think is a good thing in a lot of ways in terms of protecting clients and ensuring that there is a really high standard for advice, but just means that it’s like you need to have a well Resource Machine that’s sitting there if you want to be able to work, you know, efficiently if you want to be able to work profitably without doing crazy hours. And yeah, so I think that there’s it’s definitely moving that way. And I think probably the, you know, the advisor numbers, some of the consolidation that we’re seeing is reflective of that as well.

Matt Leech
Yeah, I think that was probably my experience, too. So doing Insite for a while, kind of got to the point where I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. It was as simple as that. And I was very fortunate that I ran into Do Tony Kotkin in a coffee shop Chifley square there. And we basically, I just told him how I was feeling. And we’ve known each other for a while. So there’s some of that I could confide in. And we basically, we had a coffee, and he basically bought my business after the coffee. So we did a basically a handshake agreement to begin with, which was really great. And I sort of spoke about how I take everything. So personally, when it’s at my own business, and I’m touching every part and I’m finding it hard to let go. And I’m not spending time with the clients that I want to talk to. And just made sense by that point, that I didn’t need to be a business owner to be an advisor. And I’d shout out to like some of your listeners out there that might feel the same way that if they just want to come and have a chat, to myself, or the coffee and bond team about if they’re looking for a new home, and they’re sick of trying to build themselves and they want to plug into a support system. I think that’s what the team has often been have done really, really well. And that’s changed my complete view on financial planning. Now, I’m actually spending time on the things I actually love, and I let go of all the other stuff. So the only word I can give you is liberated.

Ben Nash
And so was it because I feel like that’s something that we probably don’t hear too much about. We were just chatting a bit offline. And it’s there is that, you know, romanticism and the sexiness of people starting their own business, I talk to a lot of people about that, that journey as well. But I think, you know, having run a business for a bunch of time that there, it’s not for everybody, sometimes I feel like it’s not for me. But like, you know that there is a there is a lot there. And I think being an advisor is hard as it is like you say that you get quite invested with your clients and what’s going on. Obviously, we’ve been through a really difficult couple of years COVID The disruption to business disruption for our clients having to then go into overdrive to look after them through periods where there’s a lot of opportunity, investment markets, property markets, interest rates, all of those things for you. What was the what was the real catalyst to for you to start thinking, look, it’s just, it just doesn’t seem to be working for me?

Matt Leech
Yeah, I think I didn’t enjoy it at this time. This is before COVID. So COVID been great, because it’s we’re now on teams and zoom, and all those kinds of things. If you go back before that, when I was running my business, I would still see clients after hours, I’d still do home visits, because that’s what I consider to be of value to the client. I would question that now. But I was doing a nine to five in the city, and then I’d be seeing a client in their home, and then it’s an hour to get home at night, or whatever it was, and I’m getting home at like nine o’clock. It wasn’t fair to the family, it just wasn’t a great way of trying to run a business and, and at the same time when you’re running a business, and then you’re trying to bring on more staff, you’re actually paying yourself lost in a lot of cases. So you think of all the words, you know, all the time involved, you were at all and yet, you feel like sometimes you’re the last person to be rewarded. And I think that’s really common in business, I think until you get to a certain point where you can hand off more and more things. But as a one man advisor, watching the changes with Royal Commission, watching everything just actually triple in terms of difficulty. All of a sudden, that was like we’re going from one disclosure document to probably nine and you’re like, I don’t know how I’m going to do that. I have to buy more paper and more ink. But it got to that point, I was like I don’t, I don’t want to do this anymore. I don’t want to have to think about that. I don’t want to have to have that discussion with the license. And then we’re all the other hats that we require. And then be able to then talk to my clients. I just had no capacity left. And I found that I wasn’t being the best advisor. I could be because you’re actually distracted. You can’t be.

Ben Nash
Yeah, yeah, it’s a tricky one. I think for me, one of the lessons that I got from actually from one of our business coaches, at the time that we started growing out our team was that you to pay yourself a reasonable salary, like a market salary and do that, you know, before you were like at as low as you would for any one of your other team members. Because if you don’t, then you run the risk that you are paying other people more than you’re paying yourself and you’re carrying all of the responsibility, the pressure and the stress. And then you can end up resenting your presenting your team or resenting your business even because you’re not you’re doing all this stuff, and it’s like why aren’t I getting getting paid at least decently for it? And I think for me, I found that it’s like that principle of like, effective diet dieting strategies have smaller plates because you just tend to consume what’s there. So it’s amazing, you build your salary and and then you’re like, Okay, well you make that work, whereas when your salary isn’t in there, well then that you know, it’s not like you end up with with big piles of money necessarily over

Matt Leech
there. It was a big core of it. I had a great business coach, I believe he might, you might know him, Michael Beck shout out to Michael Beck, one of my favorite you love that guy, he was so good, I would catch up and have quarterly workshops with him, he was just that voice of clarity. and point out your blind spots, I think every advisor should actually have someone like that will every advice business. And what I went to, and this, I started doing this, when everyone was sort of on still percentage fees, I moved to a fixed fee retainer model, which would often would not have anything to do with products. And I used to have this basic math in my head where I’d have sort of 200 families, sorry, my dogs waking up. It used to have 200 families or I used to consider them households. And if we’re getting around five, five and a half $1,000 per year on retainers from said 200 families, that there’s a viable business there. And you could potentially run that business with one advisor, and maybe two really switched on support staff. And that was sort of the model I was going after I thought that that would work really well but are harder and harder and harder. And you find that it’s just harder to even sit with clients because you’re like, Well, I’ve just got all this paperwork, even though you’ve got stuff doing it. So just it gets to that point where like, I just do I hire another two people to help make this work? Or do I have to change my thinking? Do I need to be charging $10,000 a year? Do I need to be charging $20,000 a year for set households? And that’s not right for everyone, you can’t have a one size fits all model for all your clients. So yeah, I kind of have gone back and forth with different models. But that’s kind of what I thought was required to make it work. And I’m sure a lot of advisors aren’t doing that.

Ben Nash
Yeah, look, I think that with the increased like costs of running a business and the input costs as well, from a regulation admin and compliance perspective, I, I would question like he for five $5,000. It’s almost like you can’t do much outside of doing a review for clients. And then yeah, sort of then you working on retention, then it’s like you’re chasing your tail. So it unfortunately means that a lot of people that could use could get a lot of benefit from support aren’t getting it. But unfortunately for for advice that regulators and thankfully, they are looking at reducing it to the red tape, which I welcome with very open arms. But yeah, it just means that it’s almost impossible to make work at that level. So I get the challenge. Matt, you mentioned though that like you’ve gone through almost probably the last almost 10 years, really at least you’ve got the you’ve been working almost like as a business within a business where you’ve essentially got control over what you’re doing, you know how you’re doing it. Tell us like through that time when you think about what you do for clients. So what’s what how has that your service solution evolved over that time.

Matt Leech
It’s not, to be honest, not changed a lot. I’ve always put a bit of a big emphasis on a discovery meeting. So rather than people have a fact find meeting, I’m not I ask them to fill that out before I even book a meeting. My entry point is you fill out the astute real questionnaire, will book in your meeting will have a discovery meeting, I’ll absorb the cost of that meeting. And that meeting is all about me gaining context. And if any advisors out there, everyone ever talk about that process, I’m more than happy to share everything that I’ve done. It’s kind of I’ve worked at over time, and everyone’s got their own style. But what I built it down to was, what are you looking to avoid? is a great question to start with. Because sometimes if you’ve been Hey, Ben, tell me got us What do you want? People go? I don’t know. But if I go back to me what you want? Yeah. And then and then you can flip that conversation. So I found that that was a really good place to start. And then I would kind of massage that and flesh that out. And then often what I do is cover off on the four L’s. So where do you want to live? What’s the ideal lifestyle? Don’t tell me what you think you can have. Tell me about what you really want. We’re talking about love? What is it that you love? And how do we do more of those things? Whether it’s people, whether it’s hobbies, and then the last one’s legacy? Who are we trying to look after here? How are you going to be remembered? What do you need to do today? To You know, we almost talk about, you know, who’s at your funeral writing your own liturgy type, not liturgy, but he call it eulogy. It’s almost like start with the end in mind. And then who are we looking after? Who do you want to give back to? So that’s kind of the four l’s and then what I like to touch on is trying to I’m not a psychologist by any degree, but I do like to tap in and go tell me that what your parents were like with money. And I can’t tell you then how many times I’ve run this exercise, but you’ll have and this is very general but you always have one parent. That is the one is that switched on with money frugal. he’s conscious of it. And he’s got the opposite. It must be that opposites always attract in relationships. But every time I’ve run it scenario have got, you know, Mum was really good with money, she was really switched on she worked. Dad was always, you know, going out buying flash things and they’re trying to make it work in a household. And then you ask the other partner and go, Well, what your what were your parents like with money? And it’s kind of always this similar situation where you’ve got this opposites attract. And then I talk about well, what do you want your kids to say about you and the way that you handle money? And what advice would you go back and give your parents what what advice? Would you go back? At the age that you are now? So Ben, if you’re, what are you now? 23?

Ben Nash
26.

Matt Leech
26? What advice would you go back? Tell your parents been at 26? You know, what would you tell them to think about? Would you tell them to seek advice? Interestingly, when you run that exercise, the very light that your client should have given their parents is the exact same advice they should be receiving today. So it’s a very interesting exercise. Yeah, it’s great. And if anyone ever wants to pick my brain about that, I’d be more than happy to share that. But what you’re doing is you’re uncovering how people actually view money. What’s been inbuilt to them with money, you know, if there was a frugal lifestyle, and that was your demonstration, two things either happened with adopt a parent’s belief in money or we rebel it. And I found that really interesting as well. So many light spots with that. So if you’ve ever an advisor out there, and you want to just try something in a discovery meeting, ask what their parents were like with money, it doesn’t matter what age it is. And what you get out of that is pure gold. And then you can re frame the conversation from that you can tell them how it’s going to be different going forward, and we’re gonna make prudent decisions. And we’re never going to go out and buy something flash, we’re going to do something good first before before you buy something flash. So that’s just two examples of the discovery process. That gives me the absolute purest gold you can ever think about. And because you’ve had this great conversation, they are your client. They’re not going anywhere else.

Ben Nash
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I like the your parents attitude. And I haven’t used that one before. But I haven’t used the one to say, well, when someone asks your kids, what do you want? What do you want them to say? Because I feel like it’s like you you really sort of touching on the psychology or the heartstrings a little bit that it’s like your, you don’t want your kid to go see that same thing. And then you don’t want to be the shitty parents. But not organized when you’re like,

Matt Leech
okay, cool, let’s put the words in your child’s mouth, let’s put the words in their mouth about what they think about how you handled money. And I can tell you what’s going to come out, it’s going to be that you’re prudent, you made good decisions, you invested wisely, you saved, you probably got some insurance, you address that you kept it front of mind, like you can go on and on and on. But that if you can articulate that out of a discovery meeting, you know, everything that needs to happen now. And I think that made me a better adviser, not being scared to ask those questions. And sometimes, on a few occasions, it’s like my dad passed away. And my mom had to do everything. But she made good choices. And then my grandfather stepped in. And I was like, Well, what was your grandfather? Like with money? Then? What influence did he give you? So you’ve got to be able to sort of pivot upon their mate. But you do it through those questions. And sometimes you get a few curly ones. But it’s such a good process to run through. So if anyone ever wants to pick my brain, hit me up on LinkedIn, and we can set up a chat, but it’s such a such a good process.

Ben Nash
Nice one, and I’m interested to hear that not that much has changed over you know, almost a decade in doing that. What do you think like, because I work if I’m looking at the process, I feel like you’re taking a lot of the the things that I would feel are important in your process, obviously different to ours, but similar approach. And it’s like you push the client to do a bit of homework, you know, let them know that you’re the boss and gonna lead them through this journey. And, you know, take the time to understand them. But if if it hasn’t changed wholesale, what do you think like? Is it a conscious process of refinement that you do with that, or it’s just work so you just don’t touch it? Like?

Matt Leech
It’s that’s changed a lot over time? I think the core of it is probably the same. I think I got better asking harder questions. And digging, sometimes you think you’ve, you’ve struggled, I guess, if you’re digging and you’re actually no, there’s more to this. And I think that’s actually instincts. I think as an advisor. In those meetings, your instincts actually get better and you ask better questions, or you dig further when you should, you gotta poke and prod a little bit more to find out, because I actually think you’re only as good as your questions. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve sat with a client and an accountant and the accountant misses is all these opportunities for a question? And then what they’ve talked about with their tax return and what did you spend? And I’m like, This advice is crap, because you haven’t asked the right questions you haven’t asked enough. And I think our advice will only ever be as good as our questions. So coming back to your question, it has definitely changed a lot. And this is kind of probably where I’ve landed, where I know that I can get what I need out of the client and the context. The best part about that is, well, how do you make all this real. And I’ve always liked the idea of building 10 year plans, even if we’re talking about Super, let’s just show what, okay, if we get to the 10 year mark, the rest of it will take care of itself. And I’m always a big believer in not just relying on the Super system, you need to be doing things in your own name as well. Don’t just rely on the Super system, I think by the time we retire, that system will be completely different. The rules are so different. Let’s not just rely on $100,000. Tax Free from Super, let’s find another way, let’s create more buckets of money. And I’m big believer in debt, I think you should be getting good debt as early in your life as possible. And sometimes you’ve got these 2020, you know, mid 20s, great income. And so just get your hands on some debt and buy some assets. Because I think we all know that time is the best investment you’ve got. And you think about what your parents might have bought their property in Sydney for let’s say it was $100,000. And now it’s worth $2,000,000.20 years later. Even if you bought a property in that area, because you’ve held it for 20 years, you look like a superstar. So we often talk about time being the best investment you have.

Ben Nash
And gearing tends to we know copped a lot of grief from advisors. I put a tick tock post up about like why property wins over shares. And I love shares and I love property I think they both had. The reality is you compare a property a blue chip property geared at 80% or 50%, even to a share portfolio, that’s not the property is going to win every time. So I think for accumulators, yeah, you’ve got to be smart. And you got to manage your risk and all that stuff. I think that goes without saying but yeah, it’s super, super effective for those accumulators. It’s

Matt Leech
yeah, putting 20% of your own money down boring 80%. But getting 100% of the upside with other people. And obviously, you got to do that within the right reasons sometimes often think about every time I’ve done the modeling, I think if you put down a 30% deposit, it looks like it’s going to be paying for itself or positively geared. So if you’ve got the capital to do so, in a capital city, and I would encourage people to go out and model that, but 30%, deposit 70 70% LVR often looks like it’s it’s paying for itself. And so if you can replicate that strategy, over 10 properties, I think it’s a great strategy. But there is a place for both made I think you need liquid assets and illiquid assets?

Ben Nash
Totally. We’ll look it sounds like from that engagement, that you’ve you’ve found a sweet spot where you’re, where you’re delivering, I suppose taking the clients on a journey that you need to deliver the value that they want from the process I’m keen to hear, like, what do you feel are the biggest learnings that you’ve made around what, what the elements are of what we deliver the client do actually value most in the last, you know, on the last decade or even more than that? In advice?

Matt Leech
I think the first one is that discovery process and why it works is because if I was sitting there and going, Okay, I’m going to be lifting the hood on my finances and all this stuff and my fears and my goals. I want that person to ask me questions. I want them to go hang on a second. Tell me again about that goal about the holiday house and like it’s got the bow, can you just tell me a little bit more about that, I need to understand that. If you go into a meeting like that, and you keep digging on someone’s initial goal, that like it’s powerful stuff, because you know, in detail what they want. So I think the questioning and really kind of fleshing out goals and trying to understand from them why it’s important as well, it’s just pure gold. So that was an absolute must. I think the second part is making sure that everything we do in financial planning, make it visual. Don’t explain it. Don’t send it in words. Don’t write an email, visual. So what’s been great is the during COVID Being able to share your screen on Zoom or teams. Often I’ll have these wheel calculations up or I’ve put together a PowerPoint and everything is visual, don’t explain thing in numbers, do it in concepts. Because clients go okay, I don’t I don’t necessarily know the detail. I don’t know how that’s calculated. I don’t know the math, but conceptually, what you’re doing and that makes sense. Have you ever tried to explain TPD any offers or knock a heavy? Use a pitcher? So yeah, try and keep Everything visual, that’s one of the biggest things, keep things easy. Keep things easy for clients. That would be the biggest trying to package things up for clients. So it’s just a no brainer.

Ben Nash
Mate, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. My last question for you is that if you could go back to your bright eyed, bushy tailed self day one in the advice industry, what would be your one piece of advice?

Matt Leech
Do a degree? Do the degree, anything you can get your hands on? No. It’s a really good question, then. Because there’s so many things that can happen during that time. If I could say one thing would be to just hang in there. You’ve got to hang in there advice is it’s a career, it’s a long term career. I’d definitely tell myself to hang in there. And keep working at it. Keep talking to people create good habits, you know, how many people do you want to talk to a week? What are you going to talk to them about? I would have probably tried to create better structured habits for myself. So my time was better used, I think, yeah.

Ben Nash
And it probably to what you were saying about not you know, being the with the business stuff, taking you away from doing that might have given you a bit of a leading indicator that was you know, you couldn’t do the things that you’re saying the you know, why you wanted to be an advisor in the first place, right?

Matt Leech
Oh, totally. I mean, you can only juggle so many balls, until you’re going to drop one. And you better hope that the ball that you don’t drop is a compliance one, because then all the balls fall. And that’s the risk we run as advisors. So if at any point, you are like, You know what, I don’t think I can deliver this because I’m too distracted. I’ve got too much you need to talk to other groups out there that are looking to grow. And because the one band or the 2 million bands sort of situation, I don’t think works anymore. I think they’ve got to be converging with other firms. And those conversations need to be happening. So if there is anyone out there, you should be checking out chatting to Ben. All right.

Ben Nash
Well, Mate wise words there. And I think you’re right, I think you have to be pretty on top of stuff. To make it work at that small scale. I know that there are businesses out there that do it. But it takes a lot of structure, a lot of discipline. And that often comes with a lot of time, which is sometimes hard if you just trying to figure it all out yourself. So mate, thank you again, so much for sharing your insights. Yeah, great to have ya.

Matt Leech
We’ll see you next time. See you soon.

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